Only a source of proof-texts for Calvins Institutes. Jeff as the saying goes: may all your tribes increase. It simply makes it harder for people who are trying to recover from abuse, and continue to believe that God is good and loves them, to want to engage in a search for Truth. God does indeed work in mysterious and wonderful ways Im not trying to imply that you have never done the later. Groovy, man. @ JeffB: They are part of what it means to be human. I witnessed a weird detachment with this thinking, and people almost having to downplay love or relationship with others.. I view myself as rescued by God and dependent on his grace. One more point- there have been those on this board who have argued before (in fact, I think Dee was one) that there is a difference between God causing something and God allowing something. Did you notice that I used the word "non-Calvinist" as opposed to Arminian? There are some statements Ive thought were wrong that weve let go through, because we think sometimes it is better to give a voice than stifle a hurting person because she doesnt get every last thing correct. This would definitely color their opinion. Does this sound like a CULT(TM) to you? God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.. And, yes, there is much more to Calvinism than TULIP, though the two are thought of as interchangeable. I believe that I am endowed by my Creator with the power to put an end to the vast majority of human misery and suffering in this life It begins with me as a single drop in a vast ocean. How many blogs do you know that feature writers or pastorswho have significant differences in soteriology from the blog owners? Something like that. What scientists call the laws of nature we call normal operations of the sovereign God. I didnt say we should be satisfied with the milk of the word. Yet, somewhere after the third paragraph, this young, rudderless teen stopped reading, glanced over at Star Trek on the television, began to cry, whispered, I believe and crossed that final frontier from unbelief into belief. But I doand I understand where Jeff S is coming from here. Ive done better with some on TWW than others, many times because of my own insensitivity. The only real knowledge is surrendering your mind to their interpretive assumptions on anything. John Piper (46:41) "This is the one you're all waiting for," Dever quips. Though it purports otherwise, its every bit as secular as the rest of them, as it has nothing to do with knowing the Father, and everything to do creating a theoretical specification for ones own ideal God. If I remain silent, then Piper gets to define what it means to be Reformed, even though he denies a lot of Reformed theology and veers into hyper-Calvinism at times. The ideas of bad and good are meaningless in Calvinist doctrine. In a faith that is centered on love, (What greater love is this?) it is hard for me to understand why abused people are so often further destroyed by that faith as presented by others. On some He will act directly; others He will be aware of and use for His purposes. But when our theories about how god works become more beloved to us than God himself, theyre just idols. Again, living in a 3 dimensional world, that makes little sense. Like you, I only care about what scripture says. I think that is why it is good that Dee/Deb use the term Cavinista. . Michael Horton, in For Calvinism, w/ an intro by Roger Olson (a book I will probably keep mentioning, if you dont mind, because it deals with the issues discussed here and on other blogs) even has a chapter on the obnoxious ways of some Calvinists, and how to get past it. People have come up with ideas of primary and secondary sources of action, but really all of that is outside of direct Biblical teaching. Hence the terrible attitude of many evangelicals towards science. The Literature of the Old Testament (1913) [Chapter9], Introduction to the New Testament (1915) [Chapter9], https://laikostheologos.com/introduction-to-soteriology/%5B/footnote%5D, Cultural Dimension of Language andLiterature, Gods Sovereignty in relation to Mans sinfulacts. It's not mine. @ Darcyjo:I wish I could hear you preach. But please consider what it sounds like to those of us who disagree. But I urge you to be careful in trying to correct what you see as a misunderstanding especially if the person you are correcting has dealt with abuse. My jaw dropped open when I read the first paragraph of your post. Jeff S (and B for that matter), you sound like a good and kind man and a thoughtful speaker. Okay, that makes it a little less OCD. Am very sorry to read of your sils diagnosis. LOLGod works in mysterious and wonderful ways! I find that to be an amazing God thing. I know that it started spontaneously on another thread, but you could have said enough.. Who did he think he was? Jeff Swith respect, I have never asked anyone to shut up. I dont experience this extreme attitude from you at all. Yes, they too wrote thousands of pages, but at least they werent lawyers! I am not the smartest person in the world and I know that what seems logical to me can, in fact, be wrong . Anyway, its an article called Are There Two Wills In God?, 3) The reason for a woman to study scripture is to better serve her husband, father, children. There appears to be a loss of respect for those who are not Calvinist in their thinking. The Baptist tradition is one of the most diverse in Protestant Christianity. In fact, as Sproul describes what he sees as the sovereignty if God, his view is the latter- that God exercises his sovereignty by choosing what he allows and what he does not. considering you are being so charitable and I called Calvinism a horrible doctrine. I chose to believe in the sovereignty of God and the goodness of God, even though I dont understand how those two things can co-exist. Need I say that an airtight perfect system spanning 2400+ pages and written by a young lawyer smacks of know-it-all with a bit of OCD? I think that this is the reason why, in some cases (not including anyone in the present discussion), that a robust discussion is not possible. And when you [Calvinists whom he is addressing] quote Charles Spurgeons words equating Calvinism and the gospel (a place where I believe the great Spurgeon got it wrong), you are not saying that those of us who do not subscribe to all the points of Calvinism fail to believe the gospel. No one is trying to convince him otherwise. If the answer sometimes doesnt work then weve got more work to do Your blog has been extremely helpful to me as well, in sorting many things out. He isnt at cross-purposes with Himself, so the question is silly. Arguing these issues sends me down the crazy cycle of shame, pain, abandonment, God not hearing me, etc. Here's the list, and I start with the first prez of the CR, Adrian Rogers: Adrian Rogers. They tend to carry on for a long time about it and end up calling people heretic (Ive seen this done on both sides of the debate though ) as the conversation ensues. In fact, I would go so far as to say I think its unbiblical. We do better together than we do on our own. I do not know. Ex-Calvinist Daniel Gracely in his book Calvinism a closer look writes: "Calvinist and Non-Calvinist do not share the same meaning of words.. This is an absolutely beautiful statement! I looked into becoming a Calvinist years ago but did not see it in the Scripture, and I tried hard to do so. @ Jeff S: Aslan completely domesticated and caged within those 2400 pages of Perfect Doctrine and Parsed Theology? I am not wrong. I was blessed to be in some wonderful, intellectually stimulating churches. In addition to Dees remarks on unity, Id also like to add the following: we all accept the historic Christian creeds of the early church (Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian). But you didnt fall for it, elastigirl. This is as it should be, imo. That's pretty darn impressive, and many many . Look at my Perfect System! Ive seen the attitude too often in fandom, and for some reason political or theological fanboys are a lot more respectable than furry or otaku or gamer fanboys, though the underlying dynamic is similar. Never mind those 2400+ pages of Perfectly-Parsed Theology also stem from the same base assumptions about God as Mohammed that Gods Omnipotent Will overrides everything else about God, never mind physical reality. These accusations are often followed by the fact that although they cant explain away the opposing verses, nonetheless they know their view is the truth. I dont know that any of the venues get one closer to God than the others. . If the person makes the comment because he/she believes its important that others should know that there are people who can be hurt by that conversation in real life, how should that affect the online discussion? God would never have deliberately planned that my Calvinist pastor-father would sexually abuse me for years and years. And yes, I said so on Dennys blog. He should be a great example to you. But it will, by that, also have less life in it because it stays in the realm of ideas. Sovereign Grace Ministries I have read at his site just a little bit and so far have found many of his thoughts very satisfying on all levels. If we are acting primarily out of love, this becomes good works and is worthless. I think almost all theists answer yes, but its a hard thing to hear for that woman. What bothers me is that your leaders disregard my objections, calling me barely a Christian or saying that Olson is not a Christian. Here is the question. Jeff S, I trust him because I understand his loving nature. The Bible says they are. The correct understanding of any belief system shouldnt be of importance when Jesus says to come to him as a child., I think Jesus meant childlike, not childish. Childlike faith and trust are good, but faith has content, and, as it says in Hebrews, we should not be satisfied all our lives with the milk of the word, but should graduate to solid food.. They always enter the discussion with the premises well defined; and the cornerstone premise is that you are wrong and they are right. But I really, truly want to be done with the Paul! It helped me to understand that both sides of this argument believe that their point of view is logical. When two sides have good arguments, it leads me to believe that there is a third or different way that encompasses both. We can learn some from them, but much of what they proposed brought bondage to systems, pain, and even death to some earnestly seeking God. LOLI am much more hyper in my comments than they are. But it is you, a man like myself, my companion, my close friend, with whom I once enjoyed sweet fellowship at the house of God, as we walked about among the worshippers. The Calvinist thought process is: God has foreordained every word I say, therefore, I cannot be wrong. I dont like people spewing proof texts, but let me give yo a verse anyway: For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.. I DO know of Calvinists who stay away from these blogs excuse they feel they are unwelcome, even though they very much wish to fight against abuse. In other words, there are plenty of people who are not part of this movement. I believe that this misunderstanding puts the m FAS sis on the wrong sil LA ble, on the misunderstood sovereignty as misunderstood, instead of on the love that God, as our creator father (dada), has for us, enough love to experience the indignities of life in the first century in the middle East, to be persecuted, and to die a horribly painful and disgraceful death by torture in public, all for our benefit. That is what total and depravity mean these days, after all. My hubby got his first spiritual stirrings while watching a live performance of, Jesus Christ Superstar. However, because of this experience, I was soon led to Christ by a mainstream believer. 5) Likewise, everything we do for others should NOT be because we love them, but to bring glory to God. I have a couple key thoughts (key to me anyway) which have taken form as I have extricated myself from reformed theology over the past year: 1. thurgood marshall school of law apparel Projetos; bubble buster 2048 town Blog; cell defense the plasma membrane answer key step 13 Quem somos; how to make a good elder scrolls: legends deck Contato; Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. They never want to explain why what they believe brings God more glory than what you believe. Change). Membership Covenants John Calvin, Paul Helm John Calvin W. Robert Godfrey Crossway is a not-for-profit Christian ministry that exists solely for the purpose of proclaiming the gospel through publishing gospel-centered, Bible-centered content. I used to have the same problem talking with, or debating Roman Catholics, online. However, he presentedOlson as a man of good will. But when I look at others, I take a view that is closer to Arminian: that they have a responsibility to respond to the Gospel that is before them. Prayer Requests My theologys still up-in-the-air, and I dont care if it never comes down. I went through what Calvinists themselves call the cage stage, meaning that young or new Calvinists belong in one. You should consider it though it is a pretty long video. He is a loving man in spite of the baloney flung his way. And since they realize that their belief is based on purely subjective interpretations of scripture that require severe qualificationwell, much easier to get you to just concede their premises by couching them in theologically nebulous, but emotionally attractive (and manipulative), platitudes. Like one Cal would say, Cals do not believe Z, stop saying Cals believe in Z, but then five posts later, another Cal would sit there in the same thread and defend Z, say Cals were right and proper to believe in Z, and Z has lots of Scriptural support. I think this is true. Im not sure if Lloyd Legalist is a Calvinista, but they might be related: https://twitter.com/LloydLegalist/status/374295516462739456. [1] [2] There wasnt so much in your face going on. Because the complementarian doctrine is Gods will. Both had a very strong influence on the Nouvelle Thologie of the 20th century. Baptist commentaries are the work of scholars and pastors who have served and ministered within the Baptist branch of the Christian faith. The fundamental non-negotiables of our faith, those that if not agreed upon prevent us from calling each other brothers or sisters are found in 4 ancient creeds. C.K. Roger E. Olson (born 1952) is Professor of Theology, George W. Truett Theological Seminary, Baylor University, Waco, Texas, USA. There is one more point that I do want to make, though. However, they are limited, just as we are. Once again, I was struck by Olson's response. I have been given books and literature from I dont have experience of dealing with, or helping someone else deal with, child sex abuse; and of course I dont have experience of being someone else. The promises are over the top. Which of us sat down in total ignorance, started at Genesis, and came up with a belief system? Everything just fell apart. I believe in Penal Substitutionary Atonement. Carson Tim Challies Francis Chan (commonly referred to as "Calvinist Light") Matt Chandler Vincent Cheung Ray Comfort Tim Conway Mark Dever Kevin DeYoung Mark Driscoll Ligon Duncan At first, I thought I had missed something in my Christian walk. I am having trouble keeping up with all the comments between the two. I dont think God wanted this to happen- any more than he plans for children to be abused or any other of the litany of horrors that go on in this world. A brain tumor has already been successfully removed, which gives us hope for the next surgery (lung, rib, chest area) and the radiation/chemo to follow. This one may sound like ad hominem at first blush, but I mean it more as an observation of the . Hence, your free will is categorically subject to Gods absolute control (meaning, God allowing is functionally the exact same thing as Him not allowing; anything that happens happens as a direct function of his will, either via that positive (allowing) or the negative (not allowing)in either case, your free will is utterly under Gods sovereign control. @dee, @JohnPiper: Then Job arose and tore his robe and shaved his head and fell on the ground and worshiped.Job 1:20. Ok, see I was looking at this in a totally different way. Thus, just when you think youve got them pinned with the logical plumb line, they slip deftly away with a declaration of noyou dont understand; I dont BELIEVE that. All are welcome to participate. But, dee, how can any of us answer the deeper questions without Scripture? I recently engaged the discussion on Denny Burks website regarding the PC(USA) rejecting the song In Christ Alone because of the line The wrath of God was satisfied. I know theories of the atonement impact stuff, but I just cant get into that whole debate for some reason. I met my husband when he wandered over to Park Street after he attended a service at Tremont Temple. Id like to comment on one: Accept that Calvinists find peace in trusting that God has orchestrated even the specific tragedies in life. Your next sentence is They do not understand why this brings others great pain.. This is as it should be, imo. I want to say here that I dont think that God takes pleasure in these events and I dont think that God forces people to sin, even in their thoughts.

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